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Salmond wins vital support in tax battle



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Published Date: 08 September 2008
A HISTORIC political deal to replace the council tax with a local income tax is on the verge of being agreed between the Liberal Democrats and the SNP, The Scotsman can reveal.
Jeremy Purvis, the Lib Dem finance spokesman, who is set to meet finance secretary John Swinney this week to thrash out an agreement, signalled that compromise was on the cards.

In addition, the two Green MSPs, whose support would be vital, have indicated they are now ready to talk about the policy. Although there were talks before the summer, the SNP and Lib Dems have been split – the SNP wants a centrally set rate of 3p, but the Lib Dems want local councils to decide the rate.

Speaking to The Scotsman, Mr Purvis made it clear his party could strike a deal on the major sticking-point and give councils control of tax rates after a bedding-in period.

If this happens, the SNP would only need to find support from the Greens – though if the SNP wins the by-election which would be called if the former first minister, Labour MSP Jack McConnell, becomes High Commissioner of Malawi, they would only need independent MSP Margo MacDonald's vote in Holyrood to carry their plans.

The Greens, who favour a land value tax, said yesterday that they could be flexible. A spokesman said: "We are open to discussion on this issue because there is no doubt the council tax needs replacing, which is the weakness of most parties opposed to LIT. We want a land value tax, but if we can get that into the mixture of options for councils … then there is a room for agreement."

Ms MacDonald said she would back LIT if it can be operated at no great cost and she could have guarantees it will be fairer for the majority of Scots. She said: "There are some big questions to answer, but I can be persuaded if Mr Swinney can reassure me on those points and show me that only a small number of wealthy people can avoid it."

The political breakthrough came despite evidence that support for LIT is tumbling – a new poll put public backing for it at 46 per cent, just 15 per cent above the council tax, compared to 88 per cent support a year ago. The SNP has insisted this figure was reached after the "don't knows" were taken out.

Senior figures in the Nationalist parliamentary group have suggested the centrally set rate could be in place for the first few years before Scotland's 32 councils were allowed to set their own rates, once the system was bedded in.

Mr Purvis said this would be an acceptable solution. "Obviously any new tax system would take a year or two to bed in, so it would be completely reasonable to have a centrally set rate in that transition period and then allow councils to set their own rates," he said.

"I'll be meeting with John Swinney this week and if that is what he has to offer and it's not just something being aired by SNP MSPs, I think we can find a solution. There is a big difference between having local accountability introduced over time and not having it at all, which is the current proposal.

"The sticking point for us is local accountability and the ability of councils to raise their own taxes. If that can be overcome, then we can move forward."

The Lib Dem solution, which potentially would see businesses having to pay 32 different rates, is the nightmare scenario outlined by the Institute of Directors, CBI Scotland and Federation of Small Businesses. In their submissions to the consultation on LIT, they warned that it would create administrative chaos and overburden businesses with paperwork.

But Mr Purvis insisted LIT was not as expensive and complex as critics were claiming: "Essentially it is quite simple, you simply set the income tax rate to the person's postcode, which is a lot cheaper and simpler than going through valuations of property."

But there has been stinging criticism from Labour, who still believe there needs to be a property-based tax.

Cathy Jamieson, the acting leader of Scottish Labour, said: "It looks like we are likely to have a dodgy back-room deal between the SNP and Lib Dems, as we warned. The Lib Dem plans are even worse than the SNP's, which is difficult. This is simply a recipe for chaos."

A Scottish Government spokesman said it was open to informal talks with various parties, but was currently sticking to the original proposal of a 3p centrally set rate. As well as business groups, LIT is also opposed by the Institute of Chartered Accountants, Unison, the National Union of Students, Glasgow City and South Lanarkshire councils, the STUC, Carers Scotland, the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives, local authority finance officers, the Policy Institute, the Treasury and range of experts.

They have questioned its fairness, legality and cost and warned that the wealthy with non-salary incomes will be able to avoid paying it.

The full article contains 852 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 08 September 2008 12:59 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Scottish National Party
 
1

Angus Ogg,

07/09/2008 22:35:30

The SNP have done brilliantly in their first year.

But this is a Tartan Poll Tax.

It'll simply no' do.

As one who lent his vote to the SNP, it's in danger of being donated somewhere else in future with this abominable idea.

Methinks there are maybe more than a few floating voters of a similar view.

Wee Eck's sure footedness is in danger of going the way of other political leaders. He is assuming ALL of the electorate voted for him, rather than a sizeable chunk who were primarily moved to vote for the eviction to the previous incompetent incumbents. Tartan Poll Tax WILL cost Alex and the SNP many votes.

If he is not careful, it'll be the same tears at bed time for Alex Salmond by 2011 that happened when P45's were given to Jim Callaghan in 1979, Maggie Thatcher 1990, John Major 1997, Tony Blair 2007, Henry McLeish 2001 and Jack McConnell 2007.
2

Richardinho,

08/09/2008 00:02:57
Don't suppose the drop in support for LIT would be anything to do with the concerted media campaign against it in the last few months?
The fact is that LIT was in the SNP's manifesto. They are doing what they have been elected to do.
The real test will be when it's up and running and people will be able to judge the reality, not the propaganda peddled in this rag on an almost daily basis.
3

the_figures_are _fudged,

Galashiels 08/09/2008 00:04:18
Council Tax is hardly a fair tax either is it ?
4

Backofthenet,

08/09/2008 00:18:18
"Although there were talks before the summer, the SNP and Lib Dems have been split – the SNP wants a centrally set rate of 3p, but the Lib Dems want local councils to decide the rate."

In other words, the LibDems want a genuine local income tax.
5

Jwil,

08/09/2008 00:20:20
"Council Tax is hardly a fair tax either is it ?"

Even the Labour party accept that! We have to move on with LIT.
6

Conan the Librarian™,

08/09/2008 00:25:41
4
There you go.

http://tinyurl.com/5w9o9z
7

Richardinho,

08/09/2008 00:29:15
I'm very excited about LIT. It is a gamble, but if they manage to bring it in, and if it proves workable and popular, then it could just be the making of the SNP.

I note this newspaper elsewhere seems to think that the SNP are hoping that it gets voted down so they don't have to carry it through-for Gods sake, why would a party not want a flagship policy to reach the statute books?

The SNP needs to act with boldness and confidence. Fortune favours the brave and if they believe that LIT is a good policy, then they should have the courage to run with it.
8

Padraig,

08/09/2008 00:40:57
"As well as business groups, LIT is also opposed by the Institute of Chartered Accountants" - which Institute of Chartered Accountants? Te Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland or the Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales, who surely have no worthwhile point to offer in this debate?
9

Team Scotland,

08/09/2008 00:41:27
LIT is not a poll tax. The poll tax was a flat charge and therefore regressive. LIT as currently proposed is neutral.

10

Richardinho,

08/09/2008 00:59:23
#13 well the worst that could happen is that they'd replace one extremely unpopular tax with another unpopular tax.
I'd rather the government predicate it's policies on the possibility of success rather than the expectation of failure, as does the labour party.
11

Arthur Teak ,

This week only Oslo 08/09/2008 01:11:37
The simple point evading all the naysayers on LIT is, that at this time, Alex Salmond is popular enough to get just about anything through Parliament. If he fails he can then say: "I did my best my but minority administration was baulked by the forces of reaction".

Salmond can't lose at the moment and neither can Scotland. Independence is just around the corner.
12

A Better Way,

Scottish Republic 08/09/2008 01:12:58
I see Angus Ogg, who is a reporter of the Hootsman who pops his head up whenever his masters want the tone of what they dont like, to be influenced at the number one spot on this forum.

Lit is the way to go, but if the Councils can vary the rate to suit their budgets, then there needs to be a mechanism to audit and approve the individual rise in rate. Perhaps Audit Scotland could audit Council efficinces, and then set a rate that expects them to become more efficient, with little wastage.

The majority of Scots will be far better off with an identifiable tax rate for local amenities and services.Lets not forget Councils dont have the usual ring fencing that New Labour used to control them and make them dance to McConnels Jig.

If the money is collected by the Councils then there is no need for Westmonster to get their hands on the money, and no charges from the English Treasury.
13

Embra Don,

08/09/2008 01:30:31
Quote "The Lib Dem solution, which potentially would see businesses having to pay 32 different rates, is the nightmare scenario outlined by the Institute of Directors, CBI Scotland and Federation of Small Businesses. In their submissions to the consultation on LIT, they warned that it would create administrative chaos and overburden businesses with paperwork."

This is pure nonsense and scaremongering! all employees have different tax codes already. It should make no difference to employers
14

Willie Macleod,

Wick 08/09/2008 01:36:57
#21 The ? Highland What do you want to know?
15

muppetfinder,

08/09/2008 01:40:29
no extra for employers all is done by payroll software. postcode already on file. they alredy make one payment per month for all taxes.
16

Jo Larkinson,

Glasgow 08/09/2008 01:56:21
#18 #19 #20 #21 #22, The person using all those usernames is on holiday ... back soon thou.
17

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 08/09/2008 02:04:34
It seems our labour friends are very scared today.
18

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 08/09/2008 02:04:44
It seems our labour friends are very scared today.
19

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 08/09/2008 02:05:05
It seems our labour friends are very scared today.
20

Huistean baxter,

London ontario. 08/09/2008 03:14:11
Don't know if it is the same thing but councils here set their own local taxes. Every year there is a huge increase council claiming they need more money to pay the high wages they pay their police and firemen.It is
getting to the stage now that people can't afford the council high taxes.
21

Gobsmacked,

west kilbride 08/09/2008 04:07:25
#31 you got it in a oner. Many of our local authorities can hardly run basic services - trust them to raise taxes efficiently? No chance. LIT will be the SNP's downfall.
22

Joshua Vincent,

USA 08/09/2008 04:14:59
LIT has destroyed cities like Detroit and Philadelphia, Cleveland and other garden spots in my country. For god's sake, hasn't the SNP done any research on the effect of a LIT as it has been used around the world?

The SNP may be in opposition to Labour, but they certainly have no options that make them stand apart from blind confiscation of peoples' labour and investment.

The Scottish Green want local land value tax (LVT). If someone can tell me how land can leave a place where it is taxed at a higher rate (unlike income), I'd love to know the physics involved. It's a safe, sane, and reliable source of local revenue, full stop.

How much can LIT could Glasgow raise? How much land value in Glasgow is owned by absentees who will not pay LIT? Do the numbers. LIT will enrich the landlords of a desperately poor are. Good for you, SNP.
23

Robbie 2,

NZ 08/09/2008 05:49:49
23 Embra Don
As they say Don (in NZ anyway) “If you want a good reason for voting for something, always look at the people who are telling you not to.”

24

sdwrm,

08/09/2008 06:29:47
As an expat living in California, I can tell you that in this state with 58 counties, there are potentially 58 different sales tax percentages, and yet this state seems to function just fine - actually, there may be more than that, because cities can decide to levy a different rate. There is a 'base level' set by the state, at 7.25%, and then localities (cities or counties) can charge additional amounts up to 8.75%.

Maybe that's the compromise - once it beds in, set a national rate, then allow councils to vary it by a small margin.
25

sdwrm,

08/09/2008 07:10:10
Sales tax is collected at the point of sale - there's no escaping it. You buy something in a store - it's added on right there.
26

sdwrm,

08/09/2008 07:12:28
I know that sales tax (kind of like the UK's VAT) is quite different from a LIT, but I was bringing up the idea that it is quite possible for an economy to function with different tax rates - whether it's sales tax, or LIT. I personally think that a Scottish Sales tax might be a fairer way to go - no one can avoid it.
27

sdwrm,

08/09/2008 07:18:14
If you're buying something from another state (online or via mail or something), you get charged whatever the applicable rate for that state is. For example, if I go to the website for 'bestbuy dot com', an electronics store, and buy something, I enter my ZIP (postal) code, and the website calculates the sales tax, and adds it to your total.

If you've traveled to another state and buy something there, then you pay that state's sales tax rate.
28

sdwrm,

08/09/2008 07:26:47
#33 - the problem with the examples you raised is that individual cities levied those taxes, and the surrounding suburbs/counties did not - hence it was fairly easy to avoid the tax by people and businesses moving out of the cities - with devastating consequences.

A nationwide LIT would not have that problem. Just as no one (unless they get creative with an accountant) can avoid US federal taxes, neither could any resident of Scotland who earns income avoid the LIT. The big problem I see with the LIT is what do you do with some of the wealthiest people in the country, who do not earn income, and instead earn through dividends or interest?
29

the town cryer,

tranent 08/09/2008 07:27:03
correct this would be another form of the poll tax,the cost of setting up a new system has no finacial limit,better spent on wage increases for our public sector workers,the only way forward is to expand the amount of council tax bands,the liberlas as we have seen in east lothian and edinburgh have shown a complete contempt for the electorate,this is an attempt to help their failings
30

sdwrm,

08/09/2008 07:34:13
#46

There are a small number of states that do not have a sales tax, and I guess if you're buying a big ticket item, it could be worthwhile driving across the state line and loading the item in your car or truck, then driving back home - but for everyday items, it's not worth that kind of hassle.

If I lived on the state line between, say Massachusetts and New Hampshire, I might be tempted to do a fair bit of my shopping in NH....
31

Richardinho,

08/09/2008 07:44:15
#34'Following the debates on these threads it is clear that the SNP supporters would cheer at any proposal Salmond makes, no matter how ludicrous.'

Actually, reading your posts it's pretty clear that you don't have anything worthwhile to say against Salmond, only pathetic attempts at what I assume is meant to be humour like #36.
In fact there is a serious debate to be had about LIT,and I would love that to happen, but at the moment most of those against it ,like yourself, seem to prefer telling lies and whipping up ludicrous scare stories about it rather than discussing it in a mature considered way.

32

westcider,

Isle of Lewis 08/09/2008 07:45:02
bring em on has been knocking Alex Salmond for not having a plan. Do you think he has simply been lucky up to now? Do you perhaps know of someone outwith the SNP who has a cunning plan and if you do why not astound us with it or is it a big secret?
33

mike3,

Midlands 08/09/2008 07:48:16
If income tax is OK then what's wrong with a higher rate in Scotland if higher spend is wanted? Seems fair.
34

Joe,

Upper Gray Street 08/09/2008 07:53:54
The imposition of LIT will bury both the SNP and Lib Dems, no doubt Salmond is arrogantly oblivious to his meteoric freefall to disaster.
35

Richardinho,

08/09/2008 07:59:42
#51 Only if you believe the guff the Scotsman has been talking about it. Once the tax is a reality and the world doesn't grind to a halt and many people find themselves pleasantly surprised to be paying less tax, then we will be able to judge how good a policy it is.
36

Mikey,

08/09/2008 08:01:16
I'm amazed at the self respect that the National Party has brought to Scots in in just over a year!

Of course, as is always the case in Scotland, there is a loud mouthed minority of wannabe English who want us to follow Westmonster whatever the cost. Luckily, these people, who have no respect for themselves or their country, are now seen by your average Scot as being out on the lunatic fringe.

Salmond is no idiot. He knows that at the next Westmonster election, Labour will be wiped out and should the National Party get thirty seats, it will negate the reason to have a referendum. Thirty seats and the game's over! He knows that the rallying calls of the onionists has been that should the National Party get a majority of seats in Scotland, the game's over.

And who will bet against those thirty seats going to REAL Scots?

Onwards and upwards, folks!

Saor Alba!
37

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/09/2008 08:07:15
Even some progressive Tories support LIT.
Leaving only Labour who don't care about the lower paid any more i.e. doubling lowest tax rate from 10p to 20p.
Read Michael Porrtillo on LIT Sunday Times 7th September 2008
Having thought hard about local government finance, I am convinced that an income tax supplement must be part of any equitable local tax system. I admit that earners would pay more and high earners much more, but greater social justice is not a powerful argument against it.
More importantly, raising the money in that way would enable local government to grow in scope and importance. By comparison with almost every country I know, we suffer from chronically weak local government and from central government that is too powerful. Decisions are made remotely, national policies are imposed although they are inappropriate in most localities and terrible amounts of public money get wasted.
At present local government is little more than an instrument of Whitehall. It is dependent for most of its income on the Treasury which can therefore dictate most of its policies. It simply cannot be otherwise for as long as local authorities are forced to raise their money througha levy that is unrelated to ability to pay.
Central government does not want local government to acquire extra competences and the easiest way to block that is by maintaining an iniquitous system of local tax from which only small amounts can be raised. Local democracy scarcely exists if town halls merely take dictation from national politicians. Unsurprisingly it attracts few characters of drive and imagination. The shoddiness of British cities offers visual evidence that they lack power and confidence. They are unable to take bold initiatives like, say, Bilbao which attracted the Guggenheim museum and with it global interest.
The leading parties are constantly searching for a big idea that could be trans-formational. Salmond has hit upon it, admittedly for opportunistic reasons. Sadl
38

Linda,

Edinburgh 08/09/2008 08:13:20

NUS opposition to the Scottish Government’s LIT proposals is totally misguided.

A student would have to earn £10,500 a year or work or 33 hours a week at £6 an hour before they would pay a the equivalent of a weekly bottle of beer at a city centre bar in respect of LIT which is unlikely to come into force until 2011 but in the meantime the same student has to forego 13 bottles of beer every month to meet Gordon Brown’s doubling of the lowest tax band from 10p to 20p
39

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 08/09/2008 08:15:29
A blind Unionist can clearly see that the United Kingdom is now a quasi-federal state in everything but constitutional name.

The centralised, 20th Century British State is long Gone With The Wind.

This suits the constitution of the Liberal-Democratic Party which has always been in favour of the long held ideal of Liberal Federalism within the Union.

However, IF, this report is accurate, then the Scottish wing of the Liberal-Democratic Party, which is distinctly separate from it's Southern counterpart, will have moved from a position of long-held Liberal Federalism within the Union, to one of propping up a political party which intends to secede from the U.K.?
40

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 08:25:52
I'm amused by the triumphant demands for comment from me at 2am! I was asleep, sorry.

Incidentally, I wish people would stop this conspiracy theory that every poster who doesn't agree with the SNP must be the same person with different logins. Somebody claimed I was kimba the other day - this is beyond the pale. I only ever comment under this username.

Now then, to the business of the day: if the Lib Dems agree to a "bedding in period" where the rate is set nationally then what we are witnessing is the removal of local control over the raising and therefore of taxes for the first time in 500 years. Make no mistake, local tax would be abolished under this scheme. Instead, national taxes would be increased. But, and here's the rub, they would not be increased nearly enough to cover the shortfall in local taxes.

Assume for a moment that the SNP's wish list is granted, and not only are they allowed to increase the higher rate of income tax (something the Scottish Parliament is not competent to do under the terms of the referendum in which we all voted) but are also allowed to claw back the £400m council tax benefit despite the benefits system being reserved and Council Tax no longer being paid by anyone.

On that unlikely basis, the LIT at 3% would reduce the total tax take by approximately £350m. That's a £350m cut in local services across Scotland, every year of the "bedding in" period.

It should be clear from the experience of the council tax freeze last year that cuts to income have a direct effect on the amount and quality of services provided by councils. In Edinburgh, schools building programmes were axed, maintenance programmes were postponed indefinitely, charities doing vital work were forced to close, creche services were shut down, and so on. That was on the back of a relatively small shortfall.

If the 3% LIT comes in, that will seem like child's play. Budgets will be cut all over. Roads maintenance will be put off. Schools will crumble into
41

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 08:26:24
#57 cont'd

... disrepair. Refuse services will be reduced. Sports facilities will be downsized. Scotland will become a less attractive place to live and work. And yet, you won't be able to do anything about it in the local government elections, because the incumbents will tell you they had nothing to do with setting their budgets, only spending them.

The SNP, having complained bitterly about the lack of fiscal responsibility in the Scottish Parliament, will have acted to remove it from local authorities as well.

I do not support the SNP's national income tax increase, and nor should anyone else who has the interests of Scotland at heart.
42

eric,

08/09/2008 08:28:03
Overground from abnormality .Overboard for identity,Just a digit in another space!
43

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 08:32:33
#54 Linda, Portillo supports a Local income tax, because of its empowering effect on local authorities. What the SNP is proposing is a National income tax increase, which will have precisely the opposite effect to what Portillo is praising.

In other words, the article you quote argues against the SNP's position. Which, incidentally, Portillo makes clear in a section which you have chosen not to reproduce.

Cynical half truths? Surely this can't be the brave party of true Scots, Salmond's truth-tellers, who don't fear the facts but face them? Oh yes it is.
44

Doh,

08/09/2008 08:38:04
#58
So as a Labour supporter you dont support a tax based upon the ability to pay but you do support a tax increase of 10p on the very poorest.

As for your numbers - where do you get them from?
You are comapring a tax that has not been implemented with a tax that has not ye been set after re-evaluation. How are you so certain. You should stop being so partisan and dogmatic.

45

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 08:48:35
#63 Let's drop the points scoring attitude and look at this sensibly. The vast majority of taxes in this country are progressive (i.e. income/profit related) and those which are not are means tested. The Council Tax Benefit is what makes CT a workable, if imperfect, tax because those unable to pay it do not pay it.

Ask anyone with more than a political interest in taxation and they will tell you that a broad tax base, taking in purchase taxes, income/profit taxes and land/property taxes is the most sensible approach for a capitalist economy. That is because if you limit your taxes to just one or two types, the revenues become less predictable, tax avoidance becomes far easier, and the public purse suffers.

For a small but significant number of people, Council Tax is the only major tax they pay personally, having arranged their business interests to avoid personal income taxation. Bring in LIT and those people will stop paying tax altogether.

There are other examples, but the point is that a broad tax base is healthy, and benefits can be used effectively to reduce the impact on the lower paid.

I recommend you read the Green Party's proposals for a land tax - they make a lot of sense.
46

John not from the Borders,

Haddington 08/09/2008 08:49:15
Nobody likes the Council Tax because it's a Tax. If LIT comes in, in 5 years time no doubt we'll hear that the dreaded LIT has to be replaced. It's basically political bull!

The Council provides services which everyone in the community use and should pay for. It shouldn't be dependent on property value, income or anything else that is variable. That way we all know the true value of what we are gettting and the council are then accountable for what the provide.

Once you establish that principle you can then put in support mechanisms for those who need it.

If you think LIT will reduce the amount that you pay for your Council Services dream on!
47

danielrober,

08/09/2008 09:06:00
I do not know enough about tax policy to comment if this is a good or a bad thing.

But could the 'real' SNP leader please stand up.

This deal has not been hammered out by Alec.S, it not his style. People do not gange after a political career of 30 years and more. This is political negociation, not shout and bore back benchers methods. So who is the real leader of the SNP?
48

mr angry,

ayrshire 08/09/2008 09:21:48
#64 , what a lot of student b*llocks. What are you reading from , the Labour students spin manual. You are a windbag pontificating on something that has not been set out yet. Rather than take your pathetic guess at the Governments policy I would prefer to wait and see what is proposed , we will then see whether we are short or where any differential is coming from. There is nothing progressive about tax in this country.
Away to school son.
49

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 09:28:04
#68 Ignoring the silly insults, this seems to be a common response from SNP supporters - wait and see what is proposed. Perhaps you hadn't noticed, but the 3% rate HAS been proposed by John Swinney. My calculations are based on that amount. Swinney himself acknowledges, in his consultation paper, that it will not cover the current revenues.

Or do you think Swinney was making a "pathetic guess" too?

Try harder.
50

Senga Jean,

08/09/2008 09:30:45
OK then .Hows about a local sales tax? Just add it to vat on a post code basis!
51

The Spook in Leith,

08/09/2008 09:35:31
#67

The SNP has no plan or strategy.

It picks up on a couple of points and tries to stir people's emotions.

No i think you will find that it is your pro union dummies who try that tactic.

Congratulations to the SNP on bringing about the end of the hated and discredited Labour backed council tax even though the LIT may have to be tweaked and trimmed around the edges.
52

Jingling Geordie,

Sunshine on Leith 08/09/2008 09:36:06
Semi-detached properties no 1 and no 3 both band D.
No 1 has three earners on £25K total income £75k, house No 3 has one earner on £25K, total income £25K,
both households pay the same council tax........fair or unfair?
LIT would reverse this fairness.......most pensioners will benefit from LIT.
Having paid income tax for 50 years and rates, poll tax and council tax for 40 years I feel I am entitled to some relaxation of these burdens in my retirement.
53

The Spook in Leith,

08/09/2008 09:42:35
#72

You have shown what the council tax means, single house holds are a lot worse of than households with several incomes. A single person earning 25k living in rented accommodation (say band D) has to fork out the same amount as a person earning over 90k living in a similar rented accommodation, fair or unfair. BTW im not biased towards LIT as my parents would in fact be worse of under LIT but they both agree it is a fairer taxation for Scotland.
54

Doh,

08/09/2008 09:44:22
#64 Duncan,

Having a broad base of taxes is not the same as arguing to retain the Council Tax to fund local government- i.e. the portion they can control - I know from your previous posts that important to you.

As for a land value tax - that is a good idea as well - it would might with approval by the Liberals - Chris Huhne spoke on it recently.

I have also stated that those in favour of the council tax should have it renamed the Home Tax ot perhaps the Westminster Tax.

Meanwhile a LIT would give councils a boyant tax which rises in line with wage inflation (council's largest cost). Rather being stiched up by central government and being forced to increase the Council Tax every year just to cover inflation.

55

Thistledhu,

08/09/2008 09:53:17
would pensions be affected by this Fire/ambulance/ Armed forces Etc ?
56

The Spook in Leith,

08/09/2008 10:10:27
#76

But all you do is post one ended comments on this and the Rangers forums 24/7, don't you have anything else to do ?

On one forum last week you posted from 11pm until 7am the next morning and all you wrote (hunners of times) was.. "You wrong" " i agree " "wrong" agree", your a t i t just like ciderman man pete.
57

Salmond Rushdie,

08/09/2008 10:12:19
LIT is simply a tax on the hard working people of Scotland. What aspiration or motivation will the Scottish work force have to improve their financial position when they know the Scottish Government will take 3p off each extra £ they earn? The SNP and Lib Dems have lost the middle class vote overnight in Scotland, which may not concern the SNP and Lib Dem.

If Salmond wins the referendum, will the 3p rate stay in place? The SNP current response is, we don't know because it will depend on economic conditions etc. The bottom line is if LIT goes up above 3p the SNP/Lib Dems are in trouble. Especially if more than 50% of working people are worse off than they were under the Council Tax. 3p LIT is projected to allow 67% to be better off. How many will be better off when the Scottish Block Grant and Council Tax Rebate disappear or if the rate changes to 4p/5p?
58

Nailhead401,

everywhere 08/09/2008 10:15:23
if you are working and live in an area of high unemployment and all the associated problems this has, will you be paying more in tax to offset the population that aren't in work?
what if you live in a rurual area and local services i.e bin collections take longer and ultimatly cost more, is this reflected in the LIT?
if an area has a high LIT, do people move out of that area, lowering the house prices and raiseing the house prices in another area?
if there was ever a way to create division in an area this is it!
surley the tax system just now works without interference? why re-invent the wheel?
this all seems ill thought out....
there may be trouble ahead.

59

bluehead,

edinburgh 08/09/2008 10:18:21
does anyone have the details of the local tax system
that would be implemented?we all know the national tax system ,with allowances etc,so how does this one work,
it would interesting to be shown two or three examples
then people can judge for themselves,even though I voted SNP I have never trusted politicians,they are not without a chancer or two,or even a lot more.!!!!!
60

Thistledhu,

08/09/2008 10:26:26
lets not forget the long term unemployed who despite thousands of unfilled vacancys still managed to stay on every benifit under the sun.

they will still expect (and no doubt get) everything to be payed for them while paying nothing in return who picks up the slack for them?
61

adl333,

Linlithgow 08/09/2008 10:27:34
I cant believe that no-one has mentioned the 2 main issues here.

The ADDITIONAL cost of administration (Council Tax may not be perfect, but it is easy to collect). More importantly, to derive a figure the HMRC, Local Council, your employer, or whoever is to collect the LIT, they will have to find out your earnings before taking the 3% from you.

Civil servants ability to lose confidential information knows no boundaries.

62

Salmond Rushdie,

08/09/2008 10:32:56
Salmond and Tavish Scott are proposing a form of taxation that is currently reliant on Westminster continuing to provide the Council Tax Rebate. If for whatever reason this is not forthcoming, what will the rate of LIT be? This new tax should not be voted through until this position is finalised/confirmed. The result of no Council Tax Rebate is that many more people will be worse off.
63

Angus Ogg,

08/09/2008 10:34:28
#8 What's your point, apart from latent paranoia ?

#16 You are talking, or rather posting out of your back side.

With all due respect, I am certainly not employed by the Scotsman. For the past few years I have leant towards the SNP and posted on these boards views from that perspective. But because I post something that is not pro SNP you make assertions that are untrue.

Who are you anyway ? Why should you be allowed to say what you say?

Free speech that's why. But there are responsibilities with free speech. I don't have gratuitous pops at you, other than to counter the fact your post is unfounded and wrong.

As for posting before midnight, I have written repeatedly how this is done. I am no computer expert and can barely work email, but for anyone with an ounce of deductive reasoning it is a fairly simple system. You copy the change date button web address at the top line. Then instead of going backwards you put in the next days date.

If by posting before midnight you deduce I am an employee of the Scotsman, then your brain isn't wired that well. I would question a lot of your belief system as it seems based on faulty logic. Perhaps it is time for you to go the way of the USSR. It didn't work that well either.
64

Angus Ogg,

08/09/2008 10:46:15
#33 Joshua,

Thank goodness for some experience and reasoned debate. These Boards are often infested with the party clones such as A Worse Way at #16 and Paranoia Van at #8. There are a minority of guilty fanatics in both Unionist and Nationalist camps that act as attack droids to abuse any floating voter who dares not to fall into one box or the other.

It is refreshing that you post from experience and that LIT has been proven to be just as bad, if not worse that Local Property Rates when trialed in America.

It just seems a shame, that the SNP who have done admirably well in their first year, should fall into the trap of assuming because they were elected, that this is a carte blanche endorsement of every single policy. Especially when so many voters and organisations are baulking against LIT.

You would think Alex Salmond, who is usually so politically astute and has such a refined ear to what the voters want, should not take a second look at whether LIT is flawed.
65

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 10:48:09
#74 Indeed, there are a number of arguments against the SNP's LIT proposal. I just think that two of the strongest are the narrowing of the tax base and the removal of fiscal responsibility from local authorities. And no "bedding in period" branding for the fixed rate will change that.

I'm not sure how inflationary rises in CT can be considered the result of a "stitch up" by central government. People expect inflationary rises. Perhaps you're saying that people are too stupid to realise that an unchanging income tax rate results in an increasing income tax take. Perhaps you're right. It's not an edifying thought though.
66

Angus Ogg,

08/09/2008 11:02:07

#72,

Appreciate your effort to argue the case for LIT, but your logic is flawed. The exact reverse case is true.

A couple with three kids at the semi in no 5. Opposite them at no 6 is a huge mansion with a retired bachelor who made lots of money working in finanial services in Edinburgh.

He lives in a huge house and and thanks to LIT pays nothing, whilst five people living across the road in a small semi pay infinitely more than him.

Fair ?

No.

There will be winners and losers all round. But my concern is this will be another Poll Tax. You had lots of enthusiastic people who debated well, saying the old Rates system was hated and the Poll Tax was the answer to all our prayers.

What happened? Riots, mayhem, and Poll Tax was scrapped. To change the system from Rates to poll Tax to Council tax cost billions of pounds that were wasted in beaurocracy and could have been spent on hospitals and schools.

Though at least the Poll Tax got rid of Maggie Thatcher.

Trouble is, I quite like Alex Salmond, and don't want to see him evicted from Bute House when the Tartan Poll Tax causes riots in the Banff and he loses his seat as well as his FM job!
67

The Spook in Leith,

08/09/2008 11:02:21
#85 Angus Ogg

"These Boards are often infested with the party clones such as A Worse Way at #16 and Paranoia Van at #8."

LOL a "paranoia van" hee hee, hay maybe he is getting his own back coz when you were in the police you may have booked him for a missing headlamp or summit, you know what them Ford Transit van drivers are like!!!
68

AberdeenAngus,

08/09/2008 11:06:00
"He lives in a huge house and and thanks to LIT pays nothing, whilst five people living across the road in a small semi pay infinitely more than him."

The five people use more services - fair enough.
69

Thistledhu,

08/09/2008 11:09:24
or they five are on benifts and pay zip anyway
70

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 11:13:17
#89 So is this meant to be a progressive tax or not? Seems to me that's the opposite of a progressive tax - the richest pay nothing.

And the point is that many of the services he receives will cost the same no matter how many people live in his house - policing, fire service, refuse collection (there will be less rubbish they have to call at his house anyway); and many are not directly provided services to those who pay, but social services for those who cannot, like children or the old and vulnerable.

It is indefensible that the well-off should avoid contributing towards any of that. That is why a broad tax base makes more sense.
71

AberdeenAngus,

08/09/2008 11:19:56
"The rich" will always avoid paying tax.
72

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 11:21:38
#92 Except property or land tax! That's the whole point of a wide tax base!
73

WMSART,

MUSSELBURGH 08/09/2008 11:22:48
WHY IS IT THAT LABOUR KNOWS BEST. WHAT IS THIER VIEW, AND POLICY.
74

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

08/09/2008 11:25:18
I have serious doubts about this two-phase introduction of LIT. I just don't see the point of taking revenue-raising powers away from councils only to hand them back again some time down the line.

All it does is that instead of one changeover to confuse voters and businesses we will have two changes that will confuse voters and businesses.

It is perfectly possible, even within the present legislative framework, to create an LIT that could have variable rates. Having variable rates would make Scottish councils more accountable than a nationally set Scottish Income Tax.

Instead of this two-step solution I'd prefer short-term changes to be made to the existing Council Tax with a much more long-term view to introducing a genuine LIT. Those short-term changes could be implemented far quicker than any new tax and would bring relief to many - particulalry pensioners. Moreover, the link between local authority, expenditure, income and representation would not be broken.

By going down the two stage route, we break that link, and, however temporary that may be I don't believe it is acceptable.
75

AberdeenAngus,

08/09/2008 11:25:32
I think I'd rather wait to see what the Libdems/SNP come up with. Whatever else, it's consensus politics which can only be a good thing. In some European countries there's a "council tax" AND a land tax.

Council tax is for water & rubbish. There's a small amount for local roads and town infrastructure and a land tax.
76

AberdeenAngus,

08/09/2008 11:28:19
In some European countries, the council tax is exactly the same no matter the size of property.

There is an annual tax based on house value.

There is a tax when selling property. This tax is based on increase in land value.

I'm getting a bit confused about the whole thing!
77

Kimg Arthur,

08/09/2008 11:28:24
#93 - actually, the rich also avoid paying property taxation as well - they rich, who own multiple properties, have no incentive to sell them on, as they are only taxed on sale (stamp duty), hence, the very rich build up enormous portfolios of property, which give them capital gain and yield like a bond...its as safe as...houses.
78

Angus Ogg,

08/09/2008 11:29:00
#88 Hi Spook.

LoL. Hope you are well. This was the reason I stayed off of the Boards for a while. Fortunately, there are some decent debate points such as #74 DoH and #86 Duncan with a more forensic analysis of wide base and narrow base tax band merits, and of course the Spook input as well.

Just seems sad that there are some that just come on to abuse. Though I suppose these Boards are much like a local pub. Lots of crack (the talk not the drug), lots of good company, but the occasional drunk or bore. Though it's a bit more tricky sifting out the alcoholically challenged on the Scotsman Boards. At least in a pub you can see them as they are usually horizontal.
79

Kimg Arthur,

08/09/2008 11:29:16
100
80

The Federalist (the poster formerly know as NAUON),

08/09/2008 11:30:10
#87 "To change the system from Rates to poll Tax to Council tax cost billions of pounds that were wasted in beaurocracy and could have been spent on hospitals and schools"

Another reason to oppose a two-stage introduction of LIT. Why pay for one set of bureaucracy only to replace it with another set of bureaucracy some time down the line?

A bedding-in period would make sense if it were just going to be a change to the existing bureaucracy. But that's not what will happen - instead we will have a shift from local bureaucracy to national bureaucracy and back to local bureaucracy.

Crazy indeed.
81

Angus Ogg,

08/09/2008 11:30:24
#95 worse than that, the LIT experiment will consume millions that should be spent on schools.
82

noswod,

Honestus 08/09/2008 11:30:36
Its political suicide time for the Nats. When the middle and upper classes calculate how much 3p in the £ means i.e £5k rates instead of £2k then its curtains for the economic adviser to the Darien Bank. They will no be having it. Also the working class guy with two kids and a wife working rates a grand now but with this 3p business its £1,800. As usual the dependencey class get it free without any incentive for them to get a job and start earning like the rest of us. As with all proposed changes to rates its a stealth tax increase to keep funding the dependency classes not those who will freeze to death this winter.
83

Duncan in Edinburgh,

08/09/2008 11:35:21
#95 This proposal makes a lot of sense. However I have long suspected that the idea of the SNP's LIT proposal was not actually to achieve a local income tax, but rather to put yet another lever in place for independence, that being the raison d'etre of the SNP.

Locally set rates would not allow the SNP to link budgetary constraints back to Westminster. Changes to Council Tax to reduce the burden on the poorest would not allow the SNP to pick the CT rebate fight with Westminster. And actually getting something going before the independence referendum would expose the SNP to the danger that people would experience the service cuts that come alongside the tax cuts in time to vote against the SNP in the independence vote.

I wait to be convinced that this isn't a sacrificial policy. One thing can be relied upon - if it does fall, we will be told in no uncertain terms that it is the fault of Westminster - either for refusing to allow the SP to exert powers beyond its competence, or for refusing to supply additional funds needed to make the change, or for whatever other reason.

#15 gets it absolutely right, unfortunately - in his first para at least. His second para is woefully wrong-headed.
84

AberdeenAngus,

08/09/2008 11:37:48
I think there are a number of posters here who just make up figures to suit the argument. Go to Glasgow's LIT calculator then come back.

I refer to 103. It all depends on earnings. Like everything else in life there will be winners and losers. A few more tweaks are needed.
85

connaughtboy,

stonehaven 08/09/2008 11:38:01
#57 Duncan

Not so. The £350m you talk about will be funded from central government.
86

Kimg Arthur,

08/09/2008 11:38:25
For me, my gripe with council tax is not the tax, per se, but the fact that it constantly rises, particularly in Labour run areas, at inflation busting levels. And we really see no difference - it is mostly swallowed up in wage rises. Its like the 10% increase in the tube fares boris announced last week - most of that will go straight to the drivers who already earn 40k+ on average - th